{"id":240643,"date":"2026-03-26T11:23:21","date_gmt":"2026-03-26T15:23:21","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/ibkrcampus.com\/campus\/?p=240643"},"modified":"2026-04-09T15:25:53","modified_gmt":"2026-04-09T19:25:53","slug":"calling-it-early-are-autocallable-etfs-worth-the-hype","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.interactivebrokers.com\/campus\/podcasts\/ibkr-podcasts\/calling-it-early-are-autocallable-etfs-worth-the-hype\/","title":{"rendered":"Calling It Early: Are Autocallable ETFs Worth the Hype?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>In this episode of the IBKR Podcast, Jeff Praissman sits down with GraniteShares CEO Will Rhind to unpack the growing buzz around autocallable ETFs. They discuss how these products work, where the income comes from and whether the promise of high yield with downside protection holds up in today\u2019s market.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<iframe title=\"Calling It Early: Are Autocallable ETFs Worth the Hype?\" allowtransparency=\"true\" height=\"150\" width=\"100%\" style=\"border: none; min-width: min(100%, 430px);height:150px;\" scrolling=\"no\" data-name=\"pb-iframe-player\" src=\"https:\/\/www.podbean.com\/player-v2\/?i=ec2rr-1a817c1-pb&#038;from=pb6admin&#038;share=1&#038;download=1&#038;rtl=0&#038;fonts=Arial&#038;skin=1b1b1b&#038;font-color=ffffff&#038;logo_link=episode_page&#038;btn-skin=c73a3a\" loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-summary-ibkr-podcasts-ep-366\">Summary \u2013 IBKR Podcasts Ep. 366<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><em>The following is a summary of a live audio recording and may contain errors in spelling or grammar. Although IBKR has edited for clarity no material changes have been made<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Hi everyone, this is Jeff Praissman with Interactive Brokers.\u00a0It\u2019s\u00a0my pleasure to welcome back to the IBKR Podcast studio Will Rhind, the founder and CEO of\u00a0GraniteShares\u00a0ETFs. How are you, Will?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Very well.\u00a0Thanks, Jeff.\u00a0Yeah,\u00a0good\u00a0to be back.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-0\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, great to have you in for our monthly talk. Today\u00a0we\u2019re\u00a0going to talk about something\u00a0that I think most people\u00a0aren\u2019t\u00a0too familiar\u00a0with:\u00a0auto\u2011callable ETFs. I\u00a0kind of want\u00a0to kick it off, Will, by asking if you could explain the core mechanics behind auto\u2011callable ETFs. How do they generate income, and how do they differ from traditional income\u2011generating ETFs?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-0\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, so this is a new category within the ETF industry, and it comes from the structured product world. Auto\u2011callable ETFs\u00a0essentially combine\u00a0income\u2011paying characteristics, or yield characteristics, with downside protection, and they do that principally through the options market. This is a structure that is now becoming\u00a0very popular\u00a0with investors where, particularly in\u00a0these kind of volatile times, people are not just concerned about yield or upside, but they also would like, or are interested in, downside protection as well.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So auto\u2011callable ETFs, or barrier\u2011based ETFs, are something that&nbsp;you\u2019re&nbsp;going to see a lot more of in the market.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-1\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>And what type of risk do investors face when\u00a0they\u2019re\u00a0investing in these auto\u2011callable ETFs, and how do they compare to those other income\u2011focused ETFs you mentioned?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-1\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, so income ETFs run the gamut of what you might call very safe income investments on one end of the spectrum, which would be things like money market funds or short\u2011dated Treasury bond\u2011style ETFs.\u00a0There\u2019s\u00a0not going to be much movement, if any, in terms of your principal.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the trade\u2011off is that the yield that&nbsp;you\u2019re&nbsp;able to generate is also quite low. As you move out on the spectrum, you get into higher\u2011yielding fixed\u2011income instruments, or in the equity world, dividend\u2011paying stocks. When you come to options\u2011based income products,&nbsp;that\u2019s&nbsp;typically nearer, if not at, the higher end of the yield or income\u2011paying spectrum.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For example, you might see an auto\u2011callable ETF with an income or yield closer to 20% per annum. Contrast that with short\u2011term&nbsp;Treasuries at&nbsp;somewhere around 3% or less, and&nbsp;you\u2019ve&nbsp;got that spectrum.&nbsp;So&nbsp;it runs the gamut in terms of risk\u2011return.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Likewise, if a low\u2011yield product has a&nbsp;relatively small&nbsp;amount of risk, then it&nbsp;stands to reason&nbsp;that a higher\u2011yielding ETF would have a higher level of risk. When it comes to auto\u2011callable ETFs, while you get&nbsp;a high level&nbsp;of yield, the risk is higher, but the way that is presented to investors is in the form of downside protection through certain barriers.&nbsp;The barriers imply that if the underlying \u2014 which could be a stock or an index \u2014 moves below a certain percentage point, then the product will not pay a coupon, or not pay the income, for that particular month.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The worst\u2011case scenario is if the underlying drops below a certain barrier, then the product will give the performance of that underlying, be it&nbsp;a stock&nbsp;or an index.&nbsp;So&nbsp;you do have a higher level of risk, with some parameters put around that so that people can&nbsp;identify&nbsp;those risks and assess whether&nbsp;they\u2019re&nbsp;right for them.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-2\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>And\u00a0I\u2019m\u00a0certainly not an accountant, and\u00a0we\u2019re\u00a0certainly not giving any kind of tax advice on this podcast, but I do want to ask you: are there potential tax advantages in these auto\u2011callable ETFs?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-2\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>There potentially can be.\u00a0It\u2019s\u00a0a bit of a tough one because with all options\u2011based ETFs, or options\u2011based income ETFs, there can be a\u00a0fairly large\u00a0component, depending on the strategy and, of course, depending on the circumstances, of return of capital. Return of capital is a more tax\u2011efficient treatment than income, but that will very much depend on the strategy and the circumstances around the performance for the given period being measured.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-3\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>And Will, you touched on this when describing the risks in the\u00a0previous\u00a0question as far as investing in these auto\u2011callable ETFs, but I want to dive in a little bit deeper. From a market\u2011conditions perspective \u2014\u00a0kind of the\u00a0flip side\u00a0of that \u2014 where do they tend to perform best?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-3\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>I think the product\u00a0is principally designed for steady income payments.\u00a0That\u2019s\u00a0really the genesis of the product. If the underlying is rising \u2014 so if\u00a0it\u2019s\u00a0a single stock and that stock is appreciating over time \u2014 you would expect that to be a favorable environment.\u00a0Likewise, if the underlying stays flat over that period of time, that\u2019s also a favorable environment.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Even if the underlying goes down,&nbsp;as long as&nbsp;it stays above the barrier \u2014 above certain levels \u2014 it can still be favorable.&nbsp;Let\u2019s&nbsp;hypothetically say&nbsp;that the barrier is set at 40%. That means that so long as the underlying&nbsp;doesn\u2019t&nbsp;go down by more than 40%, you will still get your coupon payment or your income payment.&nbsp;So&nbsp;it\u2019s actually quite favorable in different market environments.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think the key attraction to investors is that even in a downside market, there are preset levels of downside protection that investors can look at and assess whether&nbsp;that\u2019s&nbsp;the right thing for them.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-4\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Right, and they\u00a0seem to be\u00a0able to potentially offer some high yields while still providing some level of downside protection. Is that a fair statement?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-4\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, absolutely. That is the proposition\u00a0in a nutshell:\u00a0a high level\u00a0of income,\u00a0a high level\u00a0of yield, but with downside protection that is defined.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-5\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>And what role, if any, do structured notes play in the underlying strategy of auto\u2011callable ETFs?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-5\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Structured notes are where this comes from. In the structured\u2011note world, these are typically products designed by banks and wholesaled out to either financial advisors or ultra\u2011high\u2011net\u2011worth individuals. Auto\u2011callables\u00a0in the structured\u2011note world are among, if not the most popular, strategies out there.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For financial advisors,&nbsp;it\u2019s&nbsp;a very popular&nbsp;strategy for clients to implement. When it comes to auto\u2011callable ETFs, this is&nbsp;a very popular&nbsp;strategy.&nbsp;Obviously, products will vary, but in terms of how a lot of the products in the market choose to do it, they don\u2019t actually hold structured notes.&nbsp;They hold options, or packages of options, and through these&nbsp;option&nbsp;payoffs, they generate the callable payoff.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-6\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Got it. Got it. Okay.\u00a0So basically, I\u00a0guess my follow\u2011up question would be: how do they simplify access to those instruments?\u00a0They\u2019re\u00a0not really offering the instruments themselves, but rather offering access to how those instruments\u00a0behave, for the most part. Is that\u00a0a correct\u00a0statement?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-6\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, I think one of the core benefits in terms of ETFs versus structured notes is, like a lot of things the ETF market does, it\u00a0takes an existing idea and converts that into ETF form and makes it more attractive to investors. If you think about structured notes,\u00a0they\u2019re\u00a0typically\u00a0very expensive\u00a0because there are large upfront fees.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, you&nbsp;don\u2019t&nbsp;have upfront fees in an ETF; you just pay for the holding period. With structured notes, there\u2019s credit risk of whatever&nbsp;bank is&nbsp;issuing that structured note. With ETFs,&nbsp;there\u2019s&nbsp;no credit risk against the ETF. With structured notes, you&nbsp;have to&nbsp;decide what&nbsp;particular payoff, or what&nbsp;particular note, that you want to invest in. With the ETF, you are buying exposure to&nbsp;a number of&nbsp;different&nbsp;auto\u2011callable options.&nbsp;So&nbsp;there are diversification benefits that you&nbsp;don\u2019t&nbsp;get just&nbsp;with&nbsp;buying one.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then with the ETF, those auto\u2011callable options are automatically rolled. So again, you&nbsp;don\u2019t&nbsp;have to worry about if your&nbsp;particular structured&nbsp;note gets called away and having to choose another one and roll into another one.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So&nbsp;there are a number of benefits that the ETF gives you. I think the last one, which would be the unique benefit&nbsp;I think every investor&nbsp;gets from ETFs, is that ETFs are liquid. You can buy and sell during market hours,&nbsp;whereas&nbsp;with structured notes, typically you can buy, but&nbsp;there\u2019s&nbsp;very little, if any, secondary\u2011market liquidity.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So&nbsp;if you want to sell it back before that note matures, that can be&nbsp;a very difficult&nbsp;thing to do. Whereas, of course, when&nbsp;you\u2019re&nbsp;buying an ETF portfolio, liquidity is really one of the core benefits of the ETF package.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-7\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>And what are some of the potential downsides of these high yields, though, offered by the auto\u2011callable ETFs? I mean, we talked about the risks earlier in the podcast, but I want to\u00a0maybe dig\u00a0a little bit deeper into how investors could manage these risks.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-7\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>I think there\u00a0are really two principal risks that investors need to be aware of.\u00a0First and foremost is the risk of a coupon not being paid, or an income payment not being made, for that particular month.\u00a0Again, there are predefined rules around that relating to the coupon barrier and the observation period.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So&nbsp;at an observation period, if the underlying is trading below the coupon barrier, there&nbsp;won\u2019t&nbsp;be a coupon paid for that month. Of course, if it recovers for the next observation period, it will be paid for that month.&nbsp;So&nbsp;whether your coupon gets paid or not is clearly a risk.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The other risk is the downside, which is again preset at a certain level. Providing the underlying&nbsp;doesn\u2019t&nbsp;fall below that certain&nbsp;level,&nbsp;you\u2019ll&nbsp;get your coupon paid. So those are really the two risk levels that I think people, for the most part, are&nbsp;concerned about.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-8\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>And how do these ETFs fit into a broader income investment strategy, and what would be some of the key considerations for investors looking to incorporate them into their portfolios?\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-8\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>I think the jumping\u2011off point is that because you\u2019re talking about a much higher level of income or yield, what it\u2019s probably going to do before anything else is increase the level of yield or income you get from your portfolio without necessarily doubling down on key risks \u2014 such as, in the fixed\u2011income world, credit risk or duration risk within the portfolio.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So&nbsp;it acts very much as a complement to fixed\u2011income exposures and, indeed, even to equity exposures, where with&nbsp;options&nbsp;you\u2019re&nbsp;generating a different type of risk than the rest of the portfolio. Depending on what kind of income portfolio you have at the base level, you can see an auto\u2011callable structure adding to or increasing the level of yield that you\u2019re able to obtain without necessarily increasing the level of risk from some of the key factors you\u2019re exposed to in the fixed\u2011income world.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-jeff-praissman-9\"><strong>Jeff Praissman<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Will, this has been great. And for our listeners, they can find more at\u00a0<a href=\"mailto:will@graniteshares.com\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">will@graniteshares.com<\/a>, and keep an eye out for our monthly podcast as we talk about\u00a0ETFs and commodities and metals\u00a0and everything else under the sun.\u00a0Thanks, Will.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-will-rhind-9\"><strong>Will Rhind<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Thanks, Jeff.\u00a0Appreciate\u00a0it.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><br><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this episode of the IBKR Podcast, Jeff Praissman sits down with GraniteShares CEO Will Rhind to unpack the growing buzz around autocallable ETFs. 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